#27: Why isn't chess popular in Japan?

日本語でのコメント失礼します。(英訳も後ろの方に書きますので、よろしければそちらを拝見ください。)
素敵な記事をありがとうございます。
あなたがおっしゃる通り、日本には、将棋と囲碁という、二つの大きな競合相手がいます。
ただ、そのどちらも現在はプレイ人口が減ってきています。
特に囲碁はそれが顕著で、人口減がタイトル戦の縮小につながるという状況になっています。
(来年から囲碁の有名なタイトル戦である本因坊戦は大幅に縮小します)
競合相手が弱っている時を狙うというには、あまり褒められた行動ではありませんが、ある種のチャンスがチェスに来ていると思います。

ここで、従来の将棋や囲碁とは異なるやり方で、チェスを広げていくことが大事かと思います。
例えば、チェスのおしゃれさや、スポーティな部分を前面に出していくことはいかがでしょうか。
一つ案を出すならば、Bulletの公式戦を開くのはどうでしょう。
将棋でも囲碁でも、Bulletにあたるタイムコントロールはありません。ですがチェスならばBulletで対局が可能です。
(特に囲碁は絶対にBulletのタイムコントロールは不可能です)。

もちろん、実際の盤と駒を使ってのBulletは難しいですから、パソコン対局でBullet対局をやります。ゲーミングパソコンの企業とタイアップできれば、さらに夢が広がります。

もしよろしければ、現役のIMである池田さんからこの考えについて何か意見をいただけると嬉しいです。

Thanks for the great article!
As you mentioned, Japan has two major competitors for chess, Shogi and Igo.
However, the number of people playing both of them is currently decreasing.
This is especially true for Go, where the decline in the population has led to a reduction in the number of title tournaments.
(Starting next year, the Honinbo Tournament, a well-known title game in Go, will be greatly reduced.)
It is not a very praiseworthy move to target a time when our competitors are weakening, but I think a certain opportunity has come to chess.

Here, I think it is important to expand chess in a different way from the traditional shogi and Go.
For example, how about bringing the fashionable and sporty aspects of chess to the forefront?
If I may make a suggestion, how about organizing an official Bullet tournament?
In Shogi and Igo, there is no time control which corresponds to Bullet. But in chess, it is possible to play with Bullet.
(Especially in Go, Bullet time control is absolutely impossible.)

Of course, it is difficult to play Bullet with a real board and pieces, so we will play Bullet games on a computer. If we can tie up with a gaming computer company, our dream will expand even further.

If you would like, I would be happy to get some feedback on this idea from Mr. Ikeda, who is an active IM.

@datajunkie said in #1:
> Comments on lichess.org/@/datajunkie/blog/27-why-isnt-chess-popular-in-japan/UoEDbXUU

Same In South Korea. Go and Korean Chess (Although these days youths don't play Korean Chess much like older people do) are the popular board games here. South Korea also doesn't have a single Korean-born GM.

@TheLunaticAugust said in #42:
> Same In South Korea. Go and Korean Chess (Although these days youths don't play Korean Chess much like older people do) are the popular board games here. South Korea also doesn't have a single Korean-born GM.

At least when last time followed international Go/Baduk there we were several really dominant korean players. Did that increase amount of young playing?

@Lamiales said in #36:
> As a Japanese who touched shogi for 20 years and started chess few years ago, I feel that chess is more tactical than shogi.
(I've read many shogi books but I rarely played it, so I am like a 1400 lichess in shogi. I am way stronger in chess now.)

Forks and skewers are fewer in shogi because the pieces are short ranged and the knight only goes two places in its front.
The drop rule looks like that it makes shogi tactical, but it can be used to defend from tactics, such as blocking a skewer.
The checkmate tactics in shogi are insane, but until we can directly attack the king I feel it is more positional than chess.
We solve checkmate puzzles instead of tactics puzzles because force checkmate is more important and middle game tactics are fewer.

Crazyhouse is sometimes considered as a mixture of chess and shogi, but I feel that it is "more chess than chess". It is too tactical too compare with shogi.

Shogi piece moves might look complex, but since they are short ranged, you can focus on a local region when calculating. You can forget about the pieces which are far from the region where the battle is happening. I still struggle to see a bishop attacking my piece from the other side of the board. I don't think shogi is more complex then chess. They are both simple enough for humans and they are both complex enough for humans.

Thanks for sharing your insights, sorry was going to reply and forgot. Definitely would love to see more chessplayers try Shogi!

@watford said in #40:
> Please read my post on lishogi with free resource: lishogi.org/forum/general-shogi-discussion/shogi-book-resourse#1

Roger the author of the shogi book, mentioned that there is currently a Shogi session running on Wednesday evenings at the Gherkin, 312 Slade Ln, Levenshulme, Manchester M19 2BY. They have a former semi-pro player from Osaka attend ocassionally.

Shogi has well established handicap systems that allow players at all grades to have challenging games against each other. Please post your comments on handicap systems here: lishogi.org/forum/lishogi-feedback/tournaments-that-incorporate-handicap-systems

Any contacts in northwest England may be interested in Doki Doki, The Manchester Japanese Festival on 9th and 10th Sept 2023. They will be doing Shogi demonstrations. Here is the link: http://www.dokidokifestival.com/

Thanks for sharing! Honestly love how there is Lichess and Lishogi, though as far as I know the latter isn't as popular as it 'should' be.

@GLAYGHOST said in #41:
> GLAYGHOSTさん、興味深いコメントをありがとうございます!タグされる限りは投稿へのコメントは通知がないのでたった今、偶然読みました、すみません。将棋もプレイ人口は減っているんですね。藤井七冠のおかげで、一種のブームとも言える部分もありそうですが、彼に頼ってるところが大きすぎるのでしょうか。より根本的な部分で、普及は21世紀においてそれほどうまくいっていないのでしょうか?
囲碁はチェスや将棋とは違う面白さがある、いつか習ってみたいゲームなので、タイトル戦の縮小まで起こっていると聞くと残念です。ツイッターなどでも、囲碁界でプレイ人口が減っている実態について少し読んでいます。
チェスは、まだまだ日本語のリソースは少ない現状ですが、オンラインのリソースの発展と、日本チェス連盟の尽力のおかげで日本で少しずつ人気が出ていると見受けています。
おっしゃる通り、日本語話者へチェスを広めるには、オンラインチェスを使った早指しの配信やイベントは良いと思います。ブレットも、特に将棋や囲碁では同じようにできないのなら、一部の層にはとても受けが良いでしょう。ブリッツやラピッドと共に、近年、英語圏などで起こっているような、普及につなげられるアリーナなのは間違いありません(チェスコムが良い例ですね)。ゲーミングパソコンの企業とのタイアップ、素敵なアイディアです。
オンラインの大会やイベントの需要もゆくゆくは増えていくかもしれません。OTBとオンライン、両方でコミュニティが増えていくと相乗効果もあるかもしれません。OTBや各地の草の根活動と共に(海外からのプレイヤーやコーチも日本に行きたくなるようなシステムも考え)、オンラインからもチェスの普及を狙っていくのが良さそうですね。夢のある話で、時間はかかるかもしれませんが、日本はポテンシャルのある市場だと思います。
私も明日丁度、日本語でリチェス配信をやってみようかなと思い立ったところだったのでコメントは楽しく読ませていただきました。ツイッター(X)でもGLAYGHOSTさんのコメントを共有したいと思うのですが、よろしいでしょうか?

English: It's interesting to hear the player base for Shogi is shrinking, as you'd think there's some kind of boom with Fujii, but perhaps the Shogi world is relying too much on him alone in some aspects, and perhaps there's more that could be done to popularise Shogi on a fundamental level in this 21st century.
Go is a game that has a different charm to chess and shogi, and is one I'd like to learn one day, so it's sad to hear how even title matches have been reduced. I've read a little about it on X.
As for chess, Japanese resources are still scarce online, but with the explosion in online resources/platforms and the work of the Japan Chess Federation, it's clearly becoming more popular.
As you say, to promote chess to Japan/Japanese speakers, games played at fast time controls in streaming and events would be one way to go. Especially if bullet wouldn't work in Go or Shogi, there'll definitely be groups of people who become attracted to chess through it, as can be seen from online fastplay appealing to the wider community and igniting interest in the game itself (chess.com is a good example). I love the idea of collabs with gaming PCs!!
As the popularity of chess in Japan grows, I'm sure there'll also be demand for more online tournaments and events. The OTB and online communities can feed each other. So, with the OTB side of things and grassroots chess activities around Japan, and eventually looking to see how to attract more players and coaches etc. from overseas, popularising chess should be done in tandem to that. There's certainly potential for it in Japan.
I'm also planning to stream some Lichess games in Japanese for the first time tomorrow, so I read your comment with interest. Do you mind if I share your comment on Twitter (X)?

@datajunkie said in #46:
> 囲碁はチェスや将棋とは違う面白さがある、いつか習ってみたいゲームなので、タイトル戦の縮小まで起こっていると聞くと残念です。ツイッターなどでも、囲碁界でプレイ人口が減っている実態について少し読んでいます。
> チェスは、まだまだ日本語のリソースは少ない現状ですが、オンラインのリソースの発展と、日本チェス連盟の尽力のおかげで日本で少しずつ人気が出ていると見受けています。
> おっしゃる通り、日本語話者へチェスを広めるには、オンラインチェスを使った早指しの配信やイベントは良いと思います。ブレットも、特に将棋や囲碁では同じようにできないのなら、一部の層にはとても受けが良いでしょう。ブリッツやラピッドと共に、近年、英語圏などで起こっているような、普及につなげられるアリーナなのは間違いありません(チェスコムが良い例ですね)。ゲーミングパソコンの企業とのタイアップ、素敵なアイディアです。
> オンラインの大会やイベントの需要もゆくゆくは増えていくかもしれません。OTBとオンライン、両方でコミュニティが増えていくと相乗効果もあるかもしれません。OTBや各地の草の根活動と共に(海外からのプレイヤーやコーチも日本に行きたくなるようなシステムも考え)、オンラインからもチェスの普及を狙っていくのが良さそうですね。夢のある話で、時間はかかるかもしれませんが、日本はポテンシャルのある市場だと思います。
> 私も明日丁度、日本語でリチェス配信をやってみようかなと思い立ったところだったのでコメントは楽しく読ませていただきました。ツイッター(X)でもGLAYGHOSTさんのコメントを共有したいと思うのですが、よろしいでしょうか?
>
> English: It's interesting to hear the player base for Shogi is shrinking, as you'd think there's some kind of boom with Fujii, but perhaps the Shogi world is relying too much on him alone in some aspects, and perhaps there's more that could be done to popularise Shogi on a fundamental level in this 21st century.
> Go is a game that has a different charm to chess and shogi, and is one I'd like to learn one day, so it's sad to hear how even title matches have been reduced. I've read a little about it on X.
> As for chess, Japanese resources are still scarce online, but with the explosion in online resources/platforms and the work of the Japan Chess Federation, it's clearly becoming more popular.
> As you say, to promote chess to Japan/Japanese speakers, games played at fast time controls in streaming and events would be one way to go. Especially if bullet wouldn't work in Go or Shogi, there'll definitely be groups of people who become attracted to chess through it, as can be seen from online fastplay appealing to the wider community and igniting interest in the game itself (chess.com is a good example). I love the idea of collabs with gaming PCs!!
> As the popularity of chess in Japan grows, I'm sure there'll also be demand for more online tournaments and events. The OTB and online communities can feed each other. So, with the OTB side of things and grassroots chess activities around Japan, and eventually looking to see how to attract more players and coaches etc. from overseas, popularising chess should be done in tandem to that. There's certainly potential for it in Japan.
> I'm also planning to stream some Lichess games in Japanese for the first time tomorrow, so I read your comment with interest. Do you mind if I share your comment on Twitter (X)?

コメントいただきありがとうございます。(I will also leave comments in English below, so please read whichever is easier to read!)
もちろんXでの共有も問題ございません!
まず、将棋の普及についてですが、藤井七冠の効果は普及における将棋を観戦するということに良い影響を与えたと思います。
つまり、将棋をプレイしないけれども、観戦するのは好きという方を増やしているのです。
あくまで、観戦する人口が増えたというだけなので、プレイ人口自体には影響をしていないと考えられます。
しかし、私はこの観戦する人が増えること自体はとてもよいことと思っております。
観戦からプレイを始めることはありますし、何より解説会などでお金を落としてくだされば、将棋界が直接的に潤います。
それが結果的に、将棋界が盛り上がることになるかと思います。
その点から申し上げると、21世紀における将棋の普及は成功していると思います。

Thank you for your comment.
Of course, there is no problem to share it in X!
First of all, regarding the popularisation of Shogi, I think that Mr. Fujii has had a positive impact on the popularisation of watching Shogi.
In other words, the number of people who do not play Shogi but like to watch it is increasing.
Since the number of people watching the games has increased, it is thought that it has not affected the number of people playing the game itself.
However, I think this increase in the number of spectators is a very good thing.
People may start playing from watching games, and above all, if people drop money at commentary events, the chess world will be directly enriched.
I believe that this will ultimately boost the Shogi world.
From this point of view, I think that the spread of Shogi in the 21st century has been a success.

@petri999 said in #43:
> At least when last time followed international Go/Baduk there we were several really dominant korean players. Did that increase amount of young playing?

Sorry I don't know much about the Korean Go community (I don't know even how to play Go/Baduk), but I heard that the number of people who are playing Go in their youth is decreasing because of less interest about the game than decades ago. (2016, 2017 could be an exception due to Lee Sedol v. AlphaGo match). There were much more kids and teenagers learning Go in the 90's compared to nowadays. Even though Korean Shin Jinseo is the current top Go player, I think it would not increase the amount of kids who are playing Go significantly (Lee Changho and Lee Sedol were also #1, additionally there are some Korean Go players who ranked #2 , #3 at their peak , so the top player in Go is Korean would be not very special to Koreans.).

(Although, the number of kids who are interested in and playing Go is much, much more than chess in South Korea now. Chess in Korea is.... very shocking and horrendous. Can you believe that a country with 52M population has NO Chess GM and only 2 IMs?)

So, a lot of the tallying about the games popularity seem to have been about title part of the game. It reminds me of discussion on chess itself. The idea that the tip of the iceberg is causing the base of the iceberg existence.

I started thinking of that when someone made a distinction between watching and practice popularity (although not sure practice in general population or still titles or officially visible playing).

What of the social structures and traversal of them, and also demographics, of casual unrecorded and undiffused playing practices.

Like soccer, although a team sport, or better because less globally practiced: hockey, one would not think that professional hockey players just pop up spontaneously out of the existence of professional teams. I wonder how many Los Angelinos, make it to ice hockey professional teams. The places where ice-hockey has been promoted and seem to survive as professional teams, have to very warm regions. While enclosed spaces could sustain life of that sport, the reduced opportunities to free throw the pucks in some external ice rink does not bode well, for its traversal of the societies where it is (was) traditionally played un-professionally (North America in mind).

Board games are not team sports (or games). So, no the same need for wide spectrum of players, although hockey attacker and goalie duels might happen unprofessionally, in the streets, even off season.. (or used to, maybe I am not living where I might see that happening anymore).

@dboing said in #49:
>
> Like soccer, although a team sport, or better because less globally practiced: hockey, one would not think that professional hockey players just pop up spontaneously out of the existence of professional teams. I wonder how many Los Angelinos,

Little similarity to chess. 1st hockey popular enough to make it a business i.e. there is sensical incentive to train hard. Second in global world you do not need locals. NHL it totally reliant on hiring people from places where hockey is popular and quite of the #1 or #2 sport. Like Finland, Sweden, Czech, Russia, B elarus and few others. Obviously to bulk of players are from Canada where ice hockey is the most popular sport.